I hate “women and femmes” because people THINK that includes me and they intend it to include me, but it doesn’t. I’m read as a woman, I don’t want to be. I am not femme. If I’m in a lesbian setting I’m hopefully read as butch. I’m genderqueer. I just get assumed to be a woman because of my body shape. And in what reality do people think non-binary butch AFAB people want to be called a woman or a femme?!
I’m old enough to remember when femme was a type of queer woman. Specifically. And not…. Honestly I don’t know what these people mean now. Do they mean effeminate queer men are ok? I don’t even know. But I look like a woman, despite my efforts so I guess they mean me.
I don’t like it.
Now I have never sought gender segregated spaces ever really. Which probably should have been an early sign of… something. But I do understand why other people may not want cis men in certain contexts.
Your piece offers some practical solutions and ways of thinking. Most pieces I’ve seen addressing these questions are only what not to do, not what TO do and it doesn’t really help organizers when that’s all that is offered.
I loved this read. I’m a trans masc sw and I was recently hired to work a large party like this - it was called a ‘sapphic’ party for femmes and women. Over time the messaging was more convoluted and started including “trans men” into the advertising but you know when you have feeling like… “hmmmmm I don’t think they mean me when they say that😆”
Anyway discussing my concerns with the organiser she actually had to admit that she had “read me as more of a butch dyke” which felt wild. Just… wild.
I didn’t work the event.
I want to add another weirdness I see lately which is from a ‘spiritual’ lens - events that say “anyone with a yoni” or similar nonsense. Good lord 😆
I find the trans inclusive language kinda funny too. I find that trans people are really not comfortable in gendered spaces, so no amount of inclusive language really works. I belong to a women's co-working space in SF, and I'm fairly sure I'm the only trans person who regularly goes.
going to read this again and again but thank you for articulating something I have been brooding over for some time, with our local surge of bending-over-backwards explanations of "sapphic" parties lately that have at this point just become tedious. looking forward to sharing with the people i've been having the conversations with. as always absolutely glad to be a reader.
I got a lot out of this, thanks for writing. Gendered spaces are kind of terrifying for me. My experiences have been good overall but also I try to go to places where I am certain trans femmes are welcome. But every time I go to a new party I am scared about being turned away
in my experience, many parties that are designed to welcome the entire queer community, wind up as a circuit party for cis gay men to cruise with each other at everyone else’s expense. i don’t feel comfortable in such spaces, a huge crowd of buff dudes who don’t look around as they push and shove and (what feels intentional) bump into people on the dance floor. i appreciate door policies that encourage a more diverse crowd of people to attend, and encourages women, trans and nonbinary people to take up space and feel safe and wanted. i do not wish to ban cis men from parties but someone needs to check the privilege of this majority group before they (physically and metaphorically) push everyone else out of queer spaces. i don’t know how else to do that, other than door policies that encourage men to be intentional about why they are attending and ensuring they’re aware of the space they take up; to have a conversation about queer spaces being for all genders, not just gayguys; and to encourage minority genders to come out and share the space too.
there is a need for focus on explicitly welcoming transfems
sometimes i see people equating hatred for cis men with hatred for trans women and thats just insanely transmisogynistic on so many levels, its awful.
you see people positioning bullshit like misandry and men being oppressed as a real thing and that men are the ones that terfs and their ilk are targeting when its actually an issue of transmisogyny which has nothing to do with men because ofc, trans women are not men
with these policies its about transmisogyny and one needs to focus on supporting transfems and fighting against transmisogyny and transmisogynoir ofc
from there other people will be lifted up as well, including cis men, but honestly as a trans woman I dont really care much about cis men, they scare me! the focus shouldn't be on cis men, but focusing on helping the most marginalized lifts them up anyway, so its all good.
ahhh, you linked to my 'Women and Femmes is a ridiculous phrase' Slate article. I'm so flattered!! I love your writing and am honoured to be tangentially included. The bdsm spaces I frequent are for queers (regardless of gender) and I find this to be the most fun and fruitful kind of event. I don't want to only hang out with other dykes...things are much more interesting when the fags are along for the ride too.
I hate “women and femmes” because people THINK that includes me and they intend it to include me, but it doesn’t. I’m read as a woman, I don’t want to be. I am not femme. If I’m in a lesbian setting I’m hopefully read as butch. I’m genderqueer. I just get assumed to be a woman because of my body shape. And in what reality do people think non-binary butch AFAB people want to be called a woman or a femme?!
I’m old enough to remember when femme was a type of queer woman. Specifically. And not…. Honestly I don’t know what these people mean now. Do they mean effeminate queer men are ok? I don’t even know. But I look like a woman, despite my efforts so I guess they mean me.
I don’t like it.
Now I have never sought gender segregated spaces ever really. Which probably should have been an early sign of… something. But I do understand why other people may not want cis men in certain contexts.
Your piece offers some practical solutions and ways of thinking. Most pieces I’ve seen addressing these questions are only what not to do, not what TO do and it doesn’t really help organizers when that’s all that is offered.
Anyway
Thanks.
Appreciate it!
I loved this read. I’m a trans masc sw and I was recently hired to work a large party like this - it was called a ‘sapphic’ party for femmes and women. Over time the messaging was more convoluted and started including “trans men” into the advertising but you know when you have feeling like… “hmmmmm I don’t think they mean me when they say that😆”
Anyway discussing my concerns with the organiser she actually had to admit that she had “read me as more of a butch dyke” which felt wild. Just… wild.
I didn’t work the event.
I want to add another weirdness I see lately which is from a ‘spiritual’ lens - events that say “anyone with a yoni” or similar nonsense. Good lord 😆
"sapphic" has also turned out to be a red flag of sorts, at least in my experience
I find the trans inclusive language kinda funny too. I find that trans people are really not comfortable in gendered spaces, so no amount of inclusive language really works. I belong to a women's co-working space in SF, and I'm fairly sure I'm the only trans person who regularly goes.
that's pretty much it right there!
going to read this again and again but thank you for articulating something I have been brooding over for some time, with our local surge of bending-over-backwards explanations of "sapphic" parties lately that have at this point just become tedious. looking forward to sharing with the people i've been having the conversations with. as always absolutely glad to be a reader.
sapphic and flinta are definitely some oversights here...
I got a lot out of this, thanks for writing. Gendered spaces are kind of terrifying for me. My experiences have been good overall but also I try to go to places where I am certain trans femmes are welcome. But every time I go to a new party I am scared about being turned away
I hate that it's scary!!
in my experience, many parties that are designed to welcome the entire queer community, wind up as a circuit party for cis gay men to cruise with each other at everyone else’s expense. i don’t feel comfortable in such spaces, a huge crowd of buff dudes who don’t look around as they push and shove and (what feels intentional) bump into people on the dance floor. i appreciate door policies that encourage a more diverse crowd of people to attend, and encourages women, trans and nonbinary people to take up space and feel safe and wanted. i do not wish to ban cis men from parties but someone needs to check the privilege of this majority group before they (physically and metaphorically) push everyone else out of queer spaces. i don’t know how else to do that, other than door policies that encourage men to be intentional about why they are attending and ensuring they’re aware of the space they take up; to have a conversation about queer spaces being for all genders, not just gayguys; and to encourage minority genders to come out and share the space too.
there is a need for focus on explicitly welcoming transfems
sometimes i see people equating hatred for cis men with hatred for trans women and thats just insanely transmisogynistic on so many levels, its awful.
you see people positioning bullshit like misandry and men being oppressed as a real thing and that men are the ones that terfs and their ilk are targeting when its actually an issue of transmisogyny which has nothing to do with men because ofc, trans women are not men
with these policies its about transmisogyny and one needs to focus on supporting transfems and fighting against transmisogyny and transmisogynoir ofc
from there other people will be lifted up as well, including cis men, but honestly as a trans woman I dont really care much about cis men, they scare me! the focus shouldn't be on cis men, but focusing on helping the most marginalized lifts them up anyway, so its all good.
ahhh, you linked to my 'Women and Femmes is a ridiculous phrase' Slate article. I'm so flattered!! I love your writing and am honoured to be tangentially included. The bdsm spaces I frequent are for queers (regardless of gender) and I find this to be the most fun and fruitful kind of event. I don't want to only hang out with other dykes...things are much more interesting when the fags are along for the ride too.